Brand Logo talk page

Previous discussion: revision 60

-- ArthurClemens - 06 Jan 2011

A new year, a new logo proposal.

Originally I had written an assignment for a designer at art school. It contained a description of Foswiki's CoreValues.

In the end the art school didn't follow up, so I have created the logo myself. What do you think?

-- ArthurClemens - 09 Jan 2011

I like it - do we have to wait until the next GA for the community to officially adopt it? or can we have an extraordinary vote in time for foswiki 1.2 / 2.0 ?

(typical logo question - can i have it in pink, and soften the edges a bit, my mum one drew a logo and she says ... lalala )

-- SvenDowideit - 10 Jan 2011

We should make it a normal feature request, so people can veto if they feel like. And then just go for it. We should use the new logo for a promo as well. It would be great to compile promo material using the new logo similar to the fosdem '11 promo gadgets, including t-shirts and mugs.

-- MichaelDaum - 10 Jan 2011

FWIW I really, really like this. Excellent work, Arthur!

IIRC we gave Arthur a mandate to come up with a "no arguments" Logo design. In that case, I don't see a need to go through the feature proposal process; I consider this as "feature done". All we need to do is implement it.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 10 Jan 2011

TODO - is there a strong favicon version?

-- SvenDowideit - 10 Jan 2011

FSWIKI

-- ArthurClemens - 10 Jan 2011

TODO - is there a strong apple icon version?

As I have learned recently, there also should be a apple-touch-icon.png to iconize the Home-Screen-Link on an iPhone/iPad. It should be 57pxx57px.

-- MartinRaabe - 10 Jan 2011

mmm, wow, the favicon gives me a completely new feel - that looks more like a toroid lit from 45 degree elevation and then reduced to 2 tone - makes me think - i like that.

-- SvenDowideit - 11 Jan 2011

You're right, the favicon is a cracker. Simple, memorable, effective. It might be interesting to play with the palette/lighting (without interfering with the basic shape, which I love).

-- CrawfordCurrie - 11 Jan 2011

Cool logo.

-- IngoKappler - 11 Jan 2011

Yes, it remembers me somehow about a telescope looking into the future. Compare it with the logo of Schott glass.

BTW: shouldn't the favicon version have transparent background so that it works on all kind of lightly colored backgrounds? And we need a inverted version of the favicon, which works on darkly colored backgrounds too, don't we?

• We can do this on per use basis. I have attached the raw materials (SVG, PNG). -- ArthurClemens - 11 Jan 2011

Thanks Arthur for this fresh iniative in the new year. Which font did you use for the text? Couldn't we also replace the o in Foswiki by the two open circles?

• No! -- ArthurClemens - 11 Jan 2011
  • You're right, the sickles shall be able to stand for their own. -- FranzJosefGigler - 12 Jan 2011

-- FranzJosefGigler - 11 Jan 2011

I knew it reminded me of something: http://www.aperfectcircle.com (hold mouse over the peace sign/logo). Some of the best music and musicians, especially mr Keenan from TOOL. I guess great, creative minds think alike Arthur

-- LarsEik - 11 Jan 2011

It's very similar, yes, but not identical. The circles in the perfectcircle logo clearly have different centres, and the whole "feel" of the logo is quite different - Arthur's logo speaks of the end of a pipe (or a nipple ring, if you prefer), which the perfectcircle logo clearly does not.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 11 Jan 2011

Arthur, is it possible to convert the sources into a non-proprietary format please? I can't open the adobe illustrator format.

/me blind.

-- MichaelDaum - 12 Jan 2011

There's a SVG already attached - use that.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 12 Jan 2011

How about adding a bit more colors to make it more interesting? Just for comparison, here's the one from Kaleidoscope.

They do have very nice typography on their webdesign as well.

-- MichaelDaum - 12 Jan 2011

/me edited Micha's comment to remove the kaleidoscope logo, to avoid distracting readers who don't want to be distracted from Arthur's excellent design. Having said that, use of colour is one good way to distinguish the proposed logo from both Schott Glass and aperfectcircle.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 12 Jan 2011

/me thinks the black/white versions are perfect, color distracts. Need to order yet another mug as soon as it became 'official'.

-- FranzJosefGigler - 12 Jan 2011

I also like the simplicity of the 2 tone BW image. I might like a less spindly font, but meh

-- SvenDowideit - 12 Jan 2011

Really depends on the context. One of the qualities of this proposal is that it works out so nicely BW.

However, in another context it might require to stand out more to make it more interesting. We really should explore this dimension before deciding.

I somewhat agree with Sven on the font. The general direction matches our needs already (no serifs, as simple as the logo). Might need some careful exploration of alternatives as well.

-- MichaelDaum - 13 Jan 2011

Testing the logo at LogoTest.

-- MichaelDaum - 24 Feb 2011

This process basically is stalled. The turn around cycles take too long. There's not enough inspiration. The current design is quite boring.

-- MichaelDaum - 26 Feb 2011

What are the process actions?

It has been said before. The difficulty is that the Foswiki organization does not / cannot act as client.

Because this is so tied to marketing, I think it is worth a try if you take on the role of brand owner for Foswiki.

So to make this concrete: could you specify what you expect from Foswiki members, and in particular from me?

-- ArthurClemens - 26 Feb 2011

at this point I would like to chip in that it seems to me the reception has be positive from everyone (other than Micha) and that many of us would like to see the existing logo used in the next release - 1.1.3 even...

The only thing I've been waiting for, is for Arthur to say, yup, I'm willing to let it be used in foswiki 1.1.3 - ie, that the designer feels its enough, and is happy to allow it to evolve as we work with it (over then next 10 years)

I do apologise for not having posted an image of me wearing the conference tshirt I made with the logo - I'm still reluctant to show my face

• You could cut off your face or place a black bar across it, but please post the tshirt photo, maybe it helps in the current fruitless logo discussion. -- FJ

-- SvenDowideit - 27 Feb 2011

Arthur, have a look at the logo test page that I've set up. As you can see this is everything but exciting, fresh or vibrant. At least it needs a little "glow" as Crawford expressed on IRC. I am less convinced than the others that the shape so far is something intersting or even memorable.

Colors are an important dimension. So I'd also like to see more of that as well.

Anyway, here are some examples of somewhat more interesting monochromes from http://dribbble.com

This is just a random sample. The point is that the proposed foswiki shape really is ... how can I say it without using the word boring again ... In contrast the samples from dribbble have some artistic core that makes them unique while still establishing a sort of connection to the organization it stands for.

I could go on for quite some time listing more logos from dribbble that all show a high level of creativity, artistic ability and professionalism. To be honest: we are missing people in the foswiki community able to come up with something on par. That's why I'd suggest to hire a professional artist to create a logo. I did propose that before (years ago) already and I do know that the rest of the community does not share my point of view.

For me it is the only logical consequence looking at the current efforts.

If most won't be ready to do that step I'd propose to stay with the current fat willy but use the makeovers with some color variations:

-- MichaelDaum - 27 Feb 2011

I asked you to be brand owner.

Instead of providing me and others input what the brand should stand for, you reply by plainly rejecting my work and giving random logo examples. That will help noone.

Imaging for a second that you would have hired a professional. What instructions would you give him?

-- ArthurClemens - 27 Feb 2011

I would explain to him what foswiki is from different perspectives: characterize it as an open source project, a community effort, a product used in professional environments, a tool with great flexibility and potential, used by various kinds of users. People rely on it to manage their knowledge assets for a long time, to coordinate and exchange information etc, listing the activities users do on a wiki site. In addition I will also explain to him what it is not and which attributes don't match that well. We would go thru a sample of example logos and typographics to narrow down to a certain direction or mood. I'd ask him to come up with about 2-5 new prototype logos. A lot of the communication is of the kind "getting an impression" of what fits well. By nature the essence of what then becomes a good logo can not be expressed in proper words in advance. That's why a rather tight communication is needed with the artist.

Everybody having worked together with a professional web designer or copywriter knows the procedure.

If I was hiring you, Arthur, to do the job, a lot of what foswiki is doesn't need to be communicated anymore as you've got a good picture of foswiki yourself of course. Still, I would reject your proposal so far for the reasons expressed above.

Sorry for having to use clear and bold words. Better saying something clear and straight, than not saying anything at all.

-- MichaelDaum - 27 Feb 2011

My point is that I don't experience you doing that kind of communication at all.

Further, my question was "What instructions would you give him", not "what kind of". I am particularly interested in the "what fits well". Because I have the feeling there we are having the biggest troubles.

-- ArthurClemens - 27 Feb 2011

An artist is not expecting to get "instructions". That does not work out as he is no machine. Instead he is looking for inspiration an a feeling for a direction. This kind of communication is not easily possible using a wiki.

I am not sure we get anywhere by discussing how a logo designer is expected to work. This should be about foswiki and a brand new logo, not how to do the work of the designer himself.

-- MichaelDaum - 27 Feb 2011

on the other hand, if Micha is the only nay sayer, we can move on and use the logo that the rest of us like (enough)

what I'm really saying is that we've heard from Micha, and now its up to others to voice a negative opinion - and in the absence, of nays, we do what we do with all foswiki contributions - we use them, and say thankyou

remember, we're a do-ocracy , not procrastinate til everyone is part of the hive mind 'consensus'.

wrt the fatwilly theme - for me, its too much the apple lickable thing - so apple in ~2000 - but I will acknowledge that I like minimalist, as that gives a clean beginning that can be easily built upon.

@Arthur - I'm just waiting to hear from you that you feel the logo is sufficiently complete that you're willing to let us use it on trunk (and then we can talk about 1.1.3 / 1.1.4 / 1.2.0 .....)

-- SvenDowideit - 27 Feb 2011

I think it's a strong foundation. If necessary we can evolve it later. But I definitely think we need to pick this up and run with it.

I like the LogoTest, although somehow I think we need to experiment more with colours/contrasts of the FW theme to make the logo stand out a little more. Maybe it's the dark background... maybe it's the weblinks that need rethinking (I don't know, I have very limited graphic/design intuition

To compare, I think Arthur's work comes out better than X-Wiki's logo, but we need to find a way to work into the skin/theme at least as well as atlassian have managed with theirs (somehow their usage seems more memorable)

-- PaulHarvey - 28 Feb 2011

There has a lot been said now and I could follow all arguments including the ones from Michael. But I wonder if not even the Swoosh Logo from Nike could be considered boring, though it has stronger dynamics (movement was requested to be reflected).

• What theoretic arguments do we have or could we use to explain this logo as related to Foswiki?
  • Ups, I just found them in CoreValues.
  • We all could do so and we could use the strongest arguments, to be more officially related to the logo.
  • E.g. the swoosh logo from Nike has a theoretic background mentioned here (German) and "steht für die Flügel der griechischen Siegesgöttin Nike" ("stands for the wings of the femal Winged Goddess of Victory Nike")
  • I perceive dynamics in the logo which are reflected by the peak ends of the two "rings". These are also calmed down due to the round centering ring effect integrating the smaller into the greater, reflecting a build up and sucking in process resulting in a centered growing better whole. It is open while balanced, integrating the new.

• Some of us seem to miss some "glimpse", some "shiny thingy" that makes the logo more obviously "flying", impressive or whatever... This is what I feel the color discussion and other trials to improve might be rooted in. An improved example may take that forward. IMHO the more calm and centered attitude the logo slightly stronger transports is a great value in itself.

• Using a logo will make it stronger.
  • What did Knight say when he selected the swoosh? English: "I don't love it," Knight told her, "but I think it will grow on me." German: „Ich kann nicht sagen, dass ich das Logo liebe, aber vielleicht wächst es mir ans Herz.“

The alternative would be to e.g.:

1. Ask the community to agree on a theoretic description about what they want.
2. Ask someone (community, designer) to use that to propose examples...

Right now it goes the other way around. I am not saying this is bad. A community vote could vote on:

1. Use this new logo proposal
2. Use the "Fat Willy" logo
3. Restart the process to:
   1. have the community agreeing on a theoretic description
   2. get examples based on the description from whatever source (maybe vote on designer versus community or decide the restart will always just be the designer since the community lacks resources)

-- IngoKappler - 28 Feb 2011

I don't think we actually need another logo discussion, we just need a logo to be used together with a skin on foswiki.org. Can't remember we had long discussions about "Fat Willy", it just was used and that was totally okay, cause we're a Wiki. I don't think Micha doesn't like Arthurs proposal per se, but thinks it should be more shiny. I don't think our new logo needs to be that shiny (what ever that means). We just need to decide that it should be used in the next release and than stick to it. One can always find arguments/interpretations on how well the new logo meets the product later on. Or to say it in the words of Nike: Just do it.

-- FranzJosefGigler - 01 Mar 2011

-- IngoKappler - 01 Mar 2011

• SvenDowideit in the foswiki LCA2011 tshirt (colour doctored as my sunburn is bright red):
  

and yes, I like it.

• Nice, even in this strange colour combination. -- FJ

-- SvenDowideit - 02 Mar 2011

I love the new logo as it is that Arthur has presented to us.

I think a few of you try to put far too much into what a logo can be expected to express. A logo is about finding a shape that looks cool and is easy to recognise and then make sure to use it well in marketing. Looking cool on the top bar is the most essential. And then after that - looking good on anywhere else. The most powerful logos in this world are all very simple. Some marketing people may try to come up with some explanation of what the logo stands for but at the end of the day it is just a logo. Just a simple symbol that when you see it you think about the company. And that does not come by some magic. It is hard work to get a logo recognised. That is where the marketing comes in.

We can never get everyone to agree on a small piece of graphics. Arthur is by far the most artistic of us all. I trust his judgement. And my immediate reaction first time I saw the the logo was - wow it is beautiful and simple and cool. And beautiful, simple, and cool are the value that I need to say Yes and thank-you.

I say - let us go with the logo. I would go with the logo Arthur has designed. It looks great in default Pattern.

-- KennethLavrsen - 02 Mar 2011

+1. Just do it.
Smokin' rubber

-- CrawfordCurrie - 02 Mar 2011

I see colors. Finally. Sven, the brown tint works great on your shirt. At least someone trying to improve the logo. (I don't agree on the tagline, but thats another story).

Arthur, can you please add some colors to the logo, a choice that make it the official colors, not necessarily the ones that Sven has chosen, but at least something. Or do you prefer black&white?

While testing this logo on a t-shirt is good and fine, we do have to prototype it on the site similar to LogoTest before giving it the final ok.

-- MichaelDaum - 02 Mar 2011

Personally I don't think we should 'set an official colour' - I took Arthur's logo in black and white to mean that we can add colour in whatever way suits our needs - not that there cannot be one.

one of the first things that sprang to mind, was to make the white logo portion transparent, and to use the webcolours - point is that the logo is the shape, and not anything more ridgid - which is the core value of foswiki - the community and project define shapes and our users colour them in as needed - and they get to choose whether they colour in inside, outside or all over the shape.

and to that note - I see Crawford's wheel interpretation as a perfectly legitimate use of our logo! (and aw, i like it)

-- SvenDowideit - 02 Mar 2011

Thanks Sven for putting it into words.

-- ArthurClemens - 02 Mar 2011

OK, so we have an interesting principle, here. Perhaps we need some rules on how the logo can be used. For example:

Limitations on Use of the Foswiki Logo

The Foswiki logo (the linked crescents) may be used freely, subject to the following limitations:

• You may not use the logo in a way that implies that the Foswiki endorses your products or your site, unless such an endorsement has been explicitly granted in writing by the Foswiki Foundation.
• When used on a web page, the logo must link to http://foswiki.org

The logo may be presented at a scale of your choice, and in your own choice of colours, subject to the following limitations:

• The two crescents must be presented in the same colour (or range of tones if gradients are employed)
• The background behind the crescents must appear continuous (i.e. don't place anything in the hole)
• The logo may be skewed, rotated, or otherwise transformed, subject to the other limitations described here.
• The logo can be combined with other artwork, subject to the other limitations described here.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 03 Mar 2011

the only limitation that I feel ok with, is the first one - the others don't work for me (not that it matters if that is whats decided..)

1. our current logo, and previously, often links to the installer's Main.WebHome - and I can't see why this, or any other use is a major problem, so long as it does not imply endorsement.

the colour, presentation etc restrictions don't seem to me to be useful, nor relevant.

for an example of something you've suggested to exclude - see UpdateAttachmentsPlugin - ie, any blogger's mashup, whatever.

I could consider a second restriction -

1. the logo may only be used in relation to foswiki...

but that too will require the foundation to actually consider defending its restriction - something we decided not to do with the trademarked name...

-- SvenDowideit - 03 Mar 2011

While I don't want to throttle creativity, I am sensitive to the "free for all" that could result.

One way to limit that would be to ensure that there is plenty of attractive, free logo artwork available for people to use, so they don;t have to bother working their own.

-- CrawfordCurrie - 03 Mar 2011

I also favour as little rules as possible as we cannot enforce them anyway. And if someone wants to show our new logo as a picture in a blog and the blog does not link the photo to foswiki.org, I will still be happy he showed the logo and wrote about us anyway.

Making the logo available in many formats and sizes is the best way to get people to show it as we want it.

I loved the way you had played with it Crawford. That wheel picture was cool. I would love to see our logo used like this. And it also shows that the circle shape is very versatile.

We can always put on a page about our logo that we would appreciate if people linked the logo to foswiki.org. And then provide the other rules as guidelines. We don't need legal BS. I am sure giving a helping hand how to use the logo is the best way for an open source project like ours.

And as Sven said the "You may not use the logo in a way that implies that the Foswiki endorses your products or your site, unless such an endorsement has been explicitly granted in writing by the Foswiki Association." is the only rule we need. And that was Association Crawford

I sort of agree with Michael about the colours. I believe the logo as it is function well in black and white. But we should also have a colour version of it. And I would also encourage Arthur to design a colour version so that we have a standard b/w and standard colour version. And again I trust that Arthur will find the colours that will look cool and pro and beautiful.

-- KennethLavrsen - 04 Mar 2011

I have worked on a number of different logo colors in conjunction with the site colors - both color schemes should work together for the brand image.

It appears that soft colors do not work well, and neither do gradients within the logo shape. They contradict the simple shape.

So here are a couple of simple color variations that are simple and bold.

-- ArthurClemens - 13 Mar 2011

Thanks, Arthur, for all these experiments. They help me at least to visualise much more effectively than my useless right brain can.

So far my favourite is the last one (logo_color_scheme_8) - though I do wonder if injecting some mosre colour into the logo would juice it up a bit?

-- CrawfordCurrie - 14 Mar 2011

i like 6 the most - but then I think less is more.

-- SvenDowideit - 14 Mar 2011

6 nice alas quite slashdot, 8 is wikiring. The two-color variations, i.e. the black&white ones, add a lot of "moon" to it. The globe ones enforce this even more. Is this intended?

-- MichaelDaum - 14 Mar 2011 8 is wikiring? Did you mean that? Doesn't look like wikiring to me.

The symbolism of the globe was meant to show the terminator (the day/night divide)

-- CrawfordCurrie - 14 Mar 2011

Yes, same blue+green tints & a circlular logo with two segments ... same as in wikiring. Heh, lotsa logos are circles. Some are squares, some even squircles.

Terminator like in the movie? The moon-on-a-globe looks like a russian radio station logo

-- MichaelDaum - 14 Mar 2011

I like 8's color scheme the best at this point, though omitting the FOSWIKI makes the project a bit more obscure on the pages. So 1 or 2 are probably better in that regard. As soon as the user navigates away from the homepage, do they loose all prominent mention of Foswiki or does the "Foswiki is the free and open source enterprise collaboration platform" remain at the top of every page. I'd be more concerned about that in that it consumes valuable screen space on view limited mobile devices. So I guess I'd want:

• The Foswiki name in the logo somehow
• The minimal footprint of the top bar, like in 3-8 (but include the name)
• The slogan(?) only on the WebHome page, omitted from content pages, or moved to a small space on the bottom bar.

We really need to cater to the handheld space. Eventually with an alternate skin, but also by minimizing the dead space of our default skin .

As far as the globe, rainbow, and smiley face versions, I think they much too busy. Simple is better.

-- GeorgeClark - 29 Mar 2011

Thanks for your feedback George. I agree about the mobile version. But that does not mean that all space needs to be packed. Just that the mobile version has an alternative view using some css differences. See for example http://lessframework.com/ (scale the browser to small).

-- ArthurClemens - 29 Mar 2011

-- ArthurClemens - 29 Mar 2011