--- Log opened Mon Oct 27 17:55:35 2008
17:55 -!- gmc [n=gmc@freenode/sponsor/gmc] has joined #twiki_release
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19:02 -!- CDot1 [n=crawford@crawfordcurrie.plus.com] has joined #twiki_release
19:03 -!- CDot1 changed the topic of #twiki_release to: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x10x27
19:34 -!- FranzJosefGigler [n=chatzill@chello084115142036.6.graz.surfer.at] has joined #twiki_release
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19:45 -!- EugenMayer [n=EugenMay@dslb-092-074-254-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #twiki_release
19:45 < EugenMayer> Hello
19:46 < EugenMayer> CDot1: are you arround?
19:48 < OliverKrueger> What time is it in London?
19:49 < gmc> 19:42 i guess
19:49 < gmc> its 20:42 in .nl
19:49 < OliverKrueger> so it starts in 10min?
19:49 < gmc> think so yes.. but we just had wintertime.. so it might all be a mess.. lets check the world clock
19:49 < gmc> i believe cdot is having dinner atm btw
19:50 < OliverKrueger> daylight saving just changed here, too. Thats why Im asking. :)
19:51 < gmc> ah.. ntpd was not running.. it's 8:51 here :)
19:52 < OliverKrueger> 7 mins,... gone forever... ;)
19:52 < gmc> 19:51 in london indeed, according to the/a world clock
19:52 -!- TomBarton [n=TomBarto@63.146.69.17] has joined #twiki_release
19:54 < EugenMayer> Hi Tom
19:55 < EugenMayer> Hi Marcus
19:55 < OliverKrueger> Hi Tom.
19:55 < TomBarton> Hello
19:57 < EugenMayer> So the meating starts in some minutes or am i wrong?
19:58 < gmc> you're not wrong, unless i am too
19:58 -!- Lavr_ [n=donotlik@cpe.atm2-0-103309.0x3ef3d076.albnxx13.customer.tele.dk] has joined #twiki_release
19:58 < EugenMayer> i used the "meating" word again
19:58 -!- SopanShewale [n=chatzill@123.252.224.74] has joined #twiki_release
19:59 < gmc> :)
19:59 < PeterThoeny_> hi andre, crawford, eugen, koen, kenneth, oliver, sopan, sven, tom, markus
19:59 < EugenMayer> i mean, whats wrong? it sounds the same :)
19:59 < EugenMayer> Hi Peter
19:59 < OliverKrueger> Hi Peter.
19:59 < PeterThoeny_> who is actually at the keyboard?
19:59 < Lavr_> Kenneth is
19:59  * gmc <==
19:59 < OliverKrueger> Markus is set to "away".
20:00 < OliverKrueger> so as CDot
20:00 < gmc> i'll be mostly in lurking mode though, i've caught a bug again
20:01 < OliverKrueger> Im busy with some kinosearch issues, too. Please shout, if you want me to comment on something.
20:01 -!- will_t1 [n=wii_t1@63.146.69.17] has joined #twiki_release
20:01 < PeterThoeny_> hi will
20:02 < PeterThoeny_> who will be facilitating? who will be taking notes?
20:03 < PeterThoeny_> proposed agenda items are posted at http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/GeorgetownReleaseMeeting2008x10x27
20:03 < PeterThoeny_> # 1. Review Urgent Bugs - for TWiki 4.2.4
20:03 < PeterThoeny_> # 2. Feature requests for Georgetown Release 
20:03 < PeterThoeny_> i would like to start with a new agenda item
20:03 < PeterThoeny_> ---++ Relaunch TWiki.org Project
20:04 < PeterThoeny_> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RelaunchTWikiOrgProject
20:04 < PeterThoeny_> please review, i also sent this content to twiki-dev and twiki-announce
20:05 < OliverKrueger> Did you change the default skin?
20:05 < PeterThoeny_> yes
20:05 < PeterThoeny_> that is one of the changes
20:05 < EugenMayer> looks a lot better. Not perfect, but years better.
20:06 < PeterThoeny_> once arthur's twiki.org specific skin is ready we can change it to his
20:07 -!- MichaelDaum__ [n=micha@dslb-082-083-134-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #twiki_release
20:07 < EugenMayer> PeterThoeny_: just to get one point, t.n. is not heading to follow the debian licence model for projects, because there are believes, the trademark can then not be protected by t.n?
20:08 < gmc> just one question peter, this is it now? either go with t.n or not? 
20:08 < OliverKrueger> Are there any news related to the "negotiations" between t.n. and "us"?
20:08 < CDot1> here now; was eating supper, sorry
20:08 < OliverKrueger> Hi CDot.
20:09 < PeterThoeny_> hi crawford
20:09 < gmc> the AgreeToTermsOfUse links is broken btw
20:09 < MichaelDaum__> OliverKrueger, yes
20:09 -!- MichaelDaum__ is now known as MichaelDaum
20:09 < OliverKrueger> Hi Michael
20:09 < PeterThoeny_> let's use the first part of this meeting as a q&a on the new governance model
20:09 < EugenMayer> I mean, you are using a chart to show up, that ubuntus way must be the better one, because there are more downloads. But this is missing a fact, that ubuntu is more likely a desktop solution while debian is more likely one for the server ( what is interesting for us mostly ) . So thats why downloads for ubuntu are raising ( linux just spreads more and more ) but linux has its place in the server-world for a long time.
20:09 -!- GilmarSantosJr [n=GilmarSa@189.104.195.136] has joined #twiki_release
20:09 < PeterThoeny_> kenneth: how much time do you need for bugs review and feature proposals?
20:10 < PeterThoeny_> hi gilmar!
20:10 < Lavr_> 0. There is no point
20:10 < OliverKrueger> Hi Kenneth, hi Gilmar
20:10 < EugenMayer> (Hello all together)
20:10 < GilmarSantosJr> hi everybody
20:10 < PeterThoeny_> ok, let's spend some time discussing the change
20:12 -!- Lynnwood [n=lynnwood@twiki/developer/lynnwood] has joined #twiki_release
20:12 < PeterThoeny_> hi lynnwood
20:12 < Lynnwood> greetings all
20:12 < EugenMayer> Hi
20:12 < PeterThoeny_> thanks koen, i fixed the link to agreetotermofuse
20:13 < PeterThoeny_> wow, we never had such good turnout at a release meeting!
20:14  * OliverKrueger will need a few mins to read the ToU.
20:14 < Lavr_> So in summary. The elected interim governance team is discarded by TWiki.net, The BDFL is back, we have to accept TWiki.nets terms of use, TWiki will not be lead by an association.
20:15 < PeterThoeny_> correction: s/twiki.net/twiki.org/
20:15 < PeterThoeny_> please take your time to read the new content
20:15 < OliverKrueger> I guess, this will be another very short meeting then.
20:16 < Lavr_> No this is TWiki.net's terms of use. We did not agree on this as a community. All the vandalism you did on TWiki.org is a dictate.
20:16 < CDot1> seems that way.
20:16 < TomBarton> We definitely do not believe that complete democratization is the best approach, but there may be a role for an association in the future.  I think the association point is the least of our worries though
20:16 < EugenMayer> PeterThoeny_: i still wait for an answer though.
20:16 < MichaelDaum> To all. This was not discussed with the Interim Board of Directors _AT ALL_
20:17 < PeterThoeny_> eugen, could you restate your question, i am not sure i understand
20:17 < MichaelDaum> These changes have been made just a minute before this meeting started.
20:18 < EugenMayer> PeterThoeny_: t.n. is not going to support / bring us a licence which respects debians way of "open source projects" because t.n. fears / feals, they cannot protect _their_ trademark then?
20:18 < Lavr_> "Peter Thoeny, the Founder of the project, and TWIKI.NET, collectively own the trademarks to the TWiki project, who have the sole discretion in decisions related to these matters. 
20:18 < gmc> i don't think this is a constructive proposal by twiki.net
20:18 < Lavr_> "
20:18 < TomBarton> At this point the TWiki.org project does not recognize the authority of the interim governance council
20:18 < gmc> TomBarton: ask yourself, does the community recognize the authority of twiki.net ?
20:19 < MichaelDaum> Why did you do that?
20:19 < TomBarton> the beautiful thing about open source is you don't need to recognize the authority of TWiki.net!
20:19 < PeterThoeny_> eugen: the main reason to not go with the debian approach is my believe that it is not beneficial to the twiki project, but the ubuntu is: http://twiki.org/p/pub/Codev/RelaunchTWikiOrgProject/debian-ubuntu-s.png
20:19 < PeterThoeny_> the tm question is secondary
20:19 < OliverKrueger> and ask yourself, who is the community, if the the people showing up here every day.
20:19 < EugenMayer> gmc: thats a bad question, we are not here to fight that way i think, though i fully understand your feelings.
20:19 < TomBarton> to explain ourselves, our reasoning was pretty simple
20:20 < TomBarton> we just didn't think that the twiki project was moving in the right direction
20:20 < EugenMayer> i repeat PeterThoeny_, you chart is useless because :
20:20 < EugenMayer>  mean, you are using a chart to show up, that ubuntus way must be the better one, because there are more downloads. But this is missing a fact, that ubuntu is more likely a desktop solution while debian is more likely one for the server ( what is interesting for us mostly ) . So thats why downloads for ubuntu are raising ( linux just spreads more and more ) but linux has its place in the server-world for a long time.
20:20 < OliverKrueger> s/the/not/
20:20 < MichaelDaum> TomBarton, but we did all of the coding!
20:20 < TomBarton> and we didn't think that the problems in the community were solveable with a totally democratic approach
20:20 < TomBarton> and the code is free - michael - you are entitled to it under the GPL
20:20 < EugenMayer> TomBarton: but the community itself believes so.
20:20 < TomBarton> again, the beautiful thing about open source
20:21 < PeterThoeny_> eugen: i am referring to the governance, not the use of software
20:21 < Lavr_> I think I just saw the ugly face of open source.
20:21 < OliverKrueger> If this is what you want, why didnt you tell us at the summit?!
20:21 < MichaelDaum> There is no beauty in T.N's recent moves.
20:21 < OliverKrueger> absolutely not
20:21 < TomBarton> fair question oliver - at the summit, we genuinely wanted to avoid a fork
20:21 < EugenMayer> iam not fully with you MichaelDaum, i like the skin :)
20:22 < SopanShewale> yes.. the Skin is good
20:22 < Lavr_> This has nothing to do with skins.
20:22 < TomBarton> however, after a lot of reflection as to what is best for the project, and of course for twiki.net, we changed course
20:22 < OliverKrueger> EugenMayer: The skin was there before.
20:22 < EugenMayer> It was a joke(@all)
20:22 < TomBarton> i know that people will probably not believe us, but we believe that we have the best interests of the project at heart (not just twiki.net)
20:23 < CDot1> I do not believe you, frankly.
20:23 < MichaelDaum> TomBarton, I would never have contributed years of my life working on ubuntu.
20:23 < CDot1> I believe you have the best interests of twiki.net at heart, and nothing else.
20:23 < gmc> i second that
20:24 < EugenMayer> Sorry Tom and Peter, you just discarded nearly anthing the _community_ has worked from the summit ( even the council ), you discarded what they agreed and voted on and put your opinion and believes above all that heads and you want us to like that. That is, not to be to harsh, ignorant.
20:24 < TomBarton> you guys are definitely entitled to your opinions, but I maintain that the project was mired with infighting and wasn't going to work
20:24 < MichaelDaum> are you going to work on the current codebase on your own from now on?
20:25 < PeterThoeny_> i would like to second tom's remark on twiki.net working for the project, i made a promise in june last year, and we executed all along: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiDotNet#PeterStatement22Jul2007
20:25 < gmc> TomBarton: i believe you don't have a proper perspective on what caused the infighting in the first place, your proposal shows this..
20:25 < TomBarton> we invite any and all developers (including you should that unlikely event occur!) to continue with the project
20:25 < gmc> TomBarton: not that i blame you, you are relatively new to the project
20:25 < gmc> not that i'm an old-timer for what it matters..
20:26 < MichaelDaum> "should that unlikely event occur" what do you mean?
20:26 < TomBarton> sorry - was a lame attempt at humor, but the point is genuine, we would like people to continue with the project
20:26 < Lavr_> I personally cannot continue under these conditions. I am sorry.
20:26 < MichaelDaum> But, Tom, don't you see how unlikely this is.
20:27 < MichaelDaum> Most most most probably, all will just leave.
20:27 < MichaelDaum> and you are on your own with your business plan
20:27 < CDot1> some people will continue, I'm sure.
20:27 < MichaelDaum> don't you think you have put TWiki.net in a very dangerous position?
20:28 < TomBarton> I hope that's not the case Michael - although I would not be surprised if some people decide it's not for them.  we also think that things might change over time of course
20:28 < GilmarSantosJr> I just looked twiki.org before the meeting and I'm scared about all this
20:28 < GilmarSantosJr> very very disapointed
20:28 < AndreU> Gilmar, we are all scared about the ignorance of twiki.net
20:28 < MichaelDaum> Tom, so you propose to us, that we fork?
20:28 < MichaelDaum> why don't you?
20:29 < OliverKrueger> why now?
20:29 < GilmarSantosJr> I think actions like that just put people away from the project
20:29 < PeterThoeny_> the main focus is the twiki mission, roadmap and charter, http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/TWikiCharter 
20:29 < TomBarton> of course we don't propose that you fork.  but you are free to do so.
20:29 < CDot1> your actions appear designed to force exactly that
20:29 < EugenMayer> Oh, ne words.
20:29 < EugenMayer> *new
20:30 < MichaelDaum> of course  we are able to fork. thats part of open source. but you havent left much of a choice to us using this shock therapy
20:30 < GilmarSantosJr> i fully agree with CDot
20:30 < MichaelDaum> Tom, this is killing TWiki.
20:31 < MichaelDaum> and with it TWiki.net
20:31 < TomBarton> i don't think so.  i actually think it's the only thing that will save it
20:31 < EugenMayer> So you used the time from the summit till now to keep us waiting to have your time to change the project the way ( FORCED ) to try to keep as many as possible pepole to t.o. when the others fork. Well, thats a kindly move.
20:31 < OliverKrueger> Is there anything left to say?
20:32 < TomBarton> no - we actually were on a path toward negotiating, but changed our minds after careful review of the letter from the Interim Governance team (which came a few weeks after the summit)
20:33 < MichaelDaum> you even gave us a very positive reply in the meantime. "very likely that we accept" etc
20:33 < gmc> that's sad to hear
20:33 < EugenMayer> Ok, so this is what you do. Your position now is, accept the terms or leave, no further discussion i guess, right tom?
20:33 < gmc> but somehow not much of a surprise :(
20:33 < TomBarton> michael, at the time, I meant that.  (sorry if it's hard to believe).  our strategy change was very recent
20:33 < PeterThoeny_> obviously emotions are running high, i would ask that everybody takes time to review the new material to make an informed decision
20:33 < PeterThoeny_> i am open to questions now on irc, e-mail or phone
20:34 < CDot1> there is very little there that is new
20:34 < Lavr_> Well. We are all basically being kicked out.
20:34 < EugenMayer> Lavr_: jap.
20:34 < Lavr_> Unless we say "Heil Peter".
20:34 < CDot1> that appears to be the bottom line.
20:35 < MichaelDaum> This is the end of TWiki as I know it.
20:35 < OliverKrueger> true
20:35 < CDot1> tbh, after this action I have lost all the trust I had (slowly been rebuilding since the summit) in Peter.
20:35 < EugenMayer> No doubt
20:35 < Lavr_> Yep. The question now is - what name do we give the fork?
20:35 < OliverKrueger> TPFKATDO
20:35 < EugenMayer> I LIKE THIS
20:35 < EugenMayer> what is this?
20:35 < CDot1> I'm sure we can come up with something good.
20:35 < OliverKrueger> The Project formerly know as TWiki Dot Org
20:36 < EugenMayer> CDot1: finally even i will start to contribute.
20:36 < CDot1> EugenMayer: no! spare us! ;-)
20:36 < EugenMayer> NO! :)
20:36 < gmc> so, i guess this meeting is over and the community reconvenes somewhere else?
20:36 < EugenMayer> I will "officelize" you :)
20:37 < MichaelDaum> PeterThoeny_, TomBarton: how will you handle our code when we go away? Will it still be there?
20:38 < TomBarton> of course!  we will continue to fully comply with the GPL etc.
20:38 < PeterThoeny_> the point is to give many people the chance to contribute to the twiki project that has a web 2.0 focus
20:39 < EugenMayer> does web2.0 develop itself? 
20:39 < OliverKrueger> ugc ;)
20:40 < PeterThoeny_> we just had RansRajah registering on twiki.org, agreeing to the terms of use: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/RansRajah
20:41 < OliverKrueger> congrats
20:41 < EugenMayer> That mist be the new web2.0 guy
20:41 < gmc> PeterThoeny_: well i wish you and RansRajah a lot of luck with your new course
20:41 < PeterThoeny_> thank you!
20:41 < EugenMayer> good luck on this boat people, best wishes.
20:41 < EugenMayer> bye
20:41 -!- EugenMayer [n=EugenMay@dslb-092-074-254-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #twiki_release ["Konversation terminated!"]
20:42 < CDot1> I don't think there is any more to discuss here.
20:42 -!- CDot1 [n=crawford@crawfordcurrie.plus.com] has left #twiki_release []
--- Log closed Mon Oct 27 20:42:57 2008